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Attorney General: Murderous Muslim rage over Qur'an-burning "idiotic and dangerous" -- no, wait...

If this were a flag-burning, do you think Holder, Clinton, Gibbs and all the rest would be speaking this way? I don't support the Qur'an burning, as I don't like the idea of burning books in general, but what Holder, Petraeus, Clinton and the rest seem to have forgotten, if they ever knew it, is that burning this book will not harm Muslims in Indonesia, Afghanistan or anywhere else. It isn't as if there aren't any other copies of the Qur'an. And if Terry Jones and his followers want to do something that Muslims and Holder and Clinton and Petraeus detest, that just makes them detestable in their eyes. It doesn't warrant or justify murderous rage and cries of "Death to America."

And the idea that the Muslim world's response to this is reasonable and that we must do our best to placate it is simply aiding and abetting a madman in his madness. Holder, Clinton, Petraeus, Gibbs and the rest should be seizing the opportunity to say that in America we believe strongly in the freedom of expression, and will protect our citizens' right to express themselves even in ways we may dislike. They should be pointing out that what Terry Jones does affects only Terry Jones, and does not harm Islam or Muslims -- and that Muslims bring far more harm to themselves by going crazy over this, issuing threats, and potentially victimizing innocent people. (Which is not to say that if they killed Jones or someone else connected with this event, that that would be justified, either.)

This could have been a teaching moment for what it means to live in a free and pluralistic society. Another lost opportunity.

"Attorney General Eric Holder calls Rev. Terry Jones' 'International Burn-a-Koran Day' 'idiotic,'" by Michael Sheridan for the New York Daily News, September 8:

The protest orchestrated by a fire-and-brimstone Florida pastor was called "idiotic and dangerous" by the U.S. Attorney General on Tuesday, according to reports. [...]

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also came out to sear the Florida preacher.

"I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths," she said on Tuesday.

The comment follows warnings from Gen. Petraeus, who fears the incendiary act will spark more attacks on U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan.

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan," he said. "Were the actual burning to take place, the safety of our soldiers and civilians would be put in jeopardy and accomplishment of the mission would be made more difficult."

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs echoed this concern on Tuesday, noting that anything "that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration."

Jones' planned book-burning has already ignited angry protests in Afghanistan, where hundreds chanted "Death to America," while earlier thousands gathered outside the U.S. embassy in Jakatra, Indonesia. [...]

Although pressure is mounting to cancel the Koran-burning, Mayor Bloomberg insists the pastor should be allowed to do what he wants.

"In a strange way, I'm here to defend his right to do that," he said on Tuesday. "I happen to think that it is distasteful... [but] the First Amendment protects everybody, and you can't say that we're going to apply the First Amendment to only those cases where we are in agreement."...

Bloomberg, of all people, actually gets it right.

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"Bibles were confiscated, destroyed and burned", US Army spokesman says in 2009 in Afghanistan. The video is clear (51 second to 1 min 6 seconds). The US Army burned Bibles to appease the muslims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m0FQ6GdGVM&feature=channel

Let's spread this to the blogosphere and maybe some of the mainstream media will ask the legitimate questions.

"This could have been a teaching moment for what it means to live in a free and pluralistic society."

Islam, like its founder, is morally dyslexic. Teaching would be wasted. It would be pearls for ignorant swine.

It just goes to show that they are afraid of the religion of peace. Confiscate and burn any material that might offend the great and tolerant muslims, then grant them special treatment and condemn anyone who might offend them, lest the peace loving muslims turn violent.

It is astoundingly transparent hypocrisy.

Obama must be consistent. He took a stand over the Ground Zero mosque - they have a right to build the mosque, (assuming they not funded and backed by the perpetrators of the 9/11 attack)

He should he now make a statement, that the Rev Terry Jones has the right to burn the Qurans under the freedom of expression.

The following is adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. – Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate.

as I have mentioned here before many times, Bloomberg is the most honorable poitician our country has ever seen.
m

Generally speaking, burning books is not an overly good idea and the reaction to the Qur'an burning will be predictable. However, if he wants to do it let him go ahead. Any resultant violence will be perpetrated by Muslims and will be entirely their responsibility.

It's odd what Muslims find offensive is it not? Say anything critical about their religion or prophet even if it is something they know to be true (e.g. Mohammed being a paedophile) and they scream "off with their heads!" I don't know about you, but I find stoning people to death, amputating limbs and genitally mutilating girls to be more offensive than burning some book. For some reason though, doctrinaire Muslims disagree and would sooner maim, mutilate and kill than see a book burn. A certain lack of perspective methinks.

Christine Tasin is the latest person to incur the hate of the Mohammedans in France for organising a series of anti-Islamisation demonstrations last Saturday. A Facebook fatwa has been issued calling for her to be subject to the Islamic punishment for blasphemy (i.e. beheading). Her 'crime': demanding that France stays true to its secular values. She's received two death threats in 24 hours. The police are taking things seriously, but Tasin remains unfazed. So come on, what's more offensive: burning a heap of books or passing a death sentence on someone because they hold a different opinion? Why have the media been completely silent about the Tasin case? See here for further information: http://durotrigan.blogspot.com/2010/09/christine-tasin-receives-facebook-fatwa.html

Filip Markov,

I had forgotten all about that incident.

Gee, what a double standard.

I think I was right the first time...'Holder, Clinton, Gibbs and all the rest', are forced into a corner because they have to admit that the 'Religion of Peace' is dangerous, and that danger makes them fearful...Cognitive dissonance...Islam cannot be the 'Religion of Peace', and dangerous at the same time...So what can a fearful liberal do when cornered...The very first thing is to take a deep breath and try not to pant...Then face reality...Islam is not compatible with any
part of the US...and that incompatibility is what makes it dangerous...There is nothing in Islam that is compatible with kufr...And Mahoundians are told to fight kufr...That does not seem too peaceful to me...

When foreigners in the US burn American flags, we simply have to deal with it. It happens all the time and it is completely offensive but yet, the disapproval and words I just typed are the extent of repercussion any demonstrators will receive. Honestly, I'm am very OK with that fact...silly thing to get murderously mad over.

Some crazy preacher decides to burn a couple Qurans in Florida, USA and Americans all over the world are now in danger from those peace-loving suicide bombers.

How many American flags are burned over seas? Isn't it so many its not even news. Will anybody be in danger because of it... no one even cares.

You keep Bloomberg, and you can have all the delusional material that comes with him...Please keep him in NYC, and away from the west coast...I would appreciate it...

uk..
the biased broadcasting corp are at it again, they are all over this, isolated, pastor, (expresssing their er! outrage)and his stunt, even down to that hamashooper guy turning up,(& turning stomachs)on the 5live radio news.giving it so much coverage its unreal
whilst at the same time, the oft mentioned
er! "asian" :-)youths, have reappeared, attacking a boy, in his school, the gang repeatedly hit him with a hammer, giving him brain damage, the constructed phone in wanted to veer towards, plain old bullying(the verbal contortions frankly despicable), despite the fact that..as we have seen on many occasions, a fully organised team turned up in a car, with hammer, check it out , the.. "unrest"...apparently
was caused by a recent influx, of er! "asians" into the area
and surprise surprise, these "asians" were causing growing "friction" within the local community,and even the school itself, was struggling to cope, with this growing threat whilst not wanting to appear to be un multi-cultural.
...................

Dear AG Holder:

YOU are the "idiot." You and Axelrod, both.

As I wrote earlier, there is no moral equivalence to 'burning the Koran' and 'stoning to death a woman'. One is a victimless crime, while the other is a most heinous crime against a human being, especially a woman. If that victimless crime so enrages Muslims that they will riot worldwide, but remain in silent 'submission' to the Sharia cult punishment of stoning, then no matter what anyone says about 'freedom of speech', there is a glaring disproportionality between the two 'crimes'. One is merely annoying sensationalist, book-burning is not a crime by human standards if no one gets hurt; but the other is truly an odious Sharia-sanctioned crime against humanity.

Wow. If you consider that weasel, Bloomberg, 'honorable' then America has got much further to go to regain its cultural mettle than I would have ever dreamed!

Bloomberg: Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Bloggers, Silent_rage,

Please help to spread the story. We need to remind the US and the media about this double standard.

"Bibles were confiscated, destroyed and burned", US Army spokesman says in 2009 in Afghanistan. The video is clear (51 second to 1 min 6 seconds). The US Army burned Bibles to appease the muslims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m0FQ6GdGVM&feature=channel

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also came out to sear the Florida preacher.

"I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths," she said on Tuesday.
..............

Is Secretary of State Clinton also heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of those threatening to murder Americans over this proposed book bar-b-que? Oh, wait...

More:

The comment follows warnings from Gen. Petraeus, who fears the incendiary act will spark more attacks on U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan.

"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort in Afghanistan," he said. "Were the actual burning to take place, the safety of our soldiers and civilians would be put in jeopardy and accomplishment of the mission would be made more difficult."
...

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs echoed this concern on Tuesday, noting that anything "that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration."
..............

What if Jihadists threaten to murder American troops if American women don't start veiling themselves? What if they threaten to murder American troops if we don't immediately impose Shari'ah law?

Would Americans who didn't agree to these strictures be a "concern" for this administration as well?

Filip Markov wrote:

"Bibles were confiscated, destroyed and burned", US Army spokesman says in 2009 in Afghanistan.
..............

Thanks for the timely reminder, Filip. Funny, I don't remember Christians threatening to murder American service people over this incident.

Not only does burning Bibles pass without comment, but apparently burning pastor Terry Jones in effigy—as happened Monday in Kabul—doesn't cause the US authorities any "concern", either.

I too am against the burning of Qurans, but the pastor has the right to do it.

At first I thought what an idiotic thing to do.

But this guy with a flock of 50 taking on 1.5 billion people, a large percentage of whom are stirred onto murderous rage by any insult real or imagined to their religion, has won my grudging admiration.

This is not David vs Goliath, this is puny David taking on the entire Philistine army.

This guy is the stuff legends are made of.

The Qur'an-burning, if it takes place, can only harm the right side, the side that is properly alarmed not about a book, but about the people who take that book to heart and those who find ways to look away, deny, pretend otherwise. The wrong side will be helped, all because of the undue sense of self, and desire for self-promotion, of an otherwise forgettable figure. If it takes place, it will be worse than a crime: it will be an error.

I find myself in disagreement with Hugh above.

Heinrich Heine writes in Almansor nearly 200 years ago (1821): "Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings.” And now, nearly 100 years later, we look on book-burning as a Nazi activity. Heine didn't see it as a Nazi activity at all, obviously, nor did the Nazis see their own book-burning as one equivalent to the Terry Jones book-burning incident up-coming. Heine saw religious bigotry leading from burning an intellectual's work leading to burning the man to stop him from spreading his ideas in the community. The Nazis and related groups saw book-burning as a prelude to burning whole races and types of people to stop them physically from spreading in the world. The Catholics and Protestant book-burners determined to stop ideas, people being secondary. The Nazis et al, determined to exterminate people, the books being secondary. The point of both groups was to stop information from spreading that challenged the ruling cliques ideologies, and the Nazis went so far as to try to eliminate people as people, ideas or not. Jones is doing nothing of either sort in his campaign. He is not burning books, he is publicly protesting against a political ideology that is a poligion, a political religion, only slightly different from any other collectivist poligion. It has nothing to do with stopping the ideas of Islam. Jones is not a representative of a State or a State religion: he is one private person acting individually with other individuals to make a political point to the public, which the public can happily ignore, should they choose to. Jones does not have the power of the State to confiscate and proscribe Islamic writings. He's making a personal statement.

If Jones and friends determine to burn Qur'ans, why would we think this is a bad thing? Because the Qur'an is a book? I've burnt many books, often on camping trips when the book is a burden and I'm tired of carrying it when it's better used as fire-wood. I've thrown books in the trash where they go to the city incinerator. Burning books is not objectively bad. It's only a bad thing when burning a book is a State or Authority-driven activity to suppress intellectual work that the Authority doesn't approve of. That is an attack on the people, not so much on the author. When the Iranian government burns Salman Rushdie books, it is a fascist programme. When I toss one on the camp fire, it's prudent. When I burn a Qur'an in Florida on 9-11 it's a personal political statement on the part of an individual; one might go so far as to call it an "intellectual statement." Waxing sentimental over "books" strikes me as a philistine expression exercised by those who don't actually read books at all. It strikes me as an idolatry, a fetish over a false ascription to books a mystical nature. If books were scared as books, then the worst that could happen to a book is not that it's burnt but that it ends in the remainder bin at a second-hand bookshop. That is a statement of contempt.

I am in full support of Jones and friends in their public display of burning Qur'ans. Were they to send the police to search for my dozen or so Qur'ans, that would be a different matter. It would not be a public protest against a fascist poligion, it would be a fascist attempt to control the minds of the people, to enforce a rigid conformity on the masses. This protest against Jones' burning Qur'ans is that very fascist attempt to make people conform to the intellectual pretensions of our Post-Modernist elites. When the State demands that one not burn a private book, then one finds oneself in confrontation with Authority over a private matter that has no genuine concern for the State. No politician should have a public opinion of this effort to protest against Islam. It is a matter of private people making a public statement. State interference is a fascist gesture. Those who clamour against the book-burning might look on it as just one more day in the life of humanity, a rather large issue that really has little to do with many at all. Public intellectuals should of course weigh in as public intellectuals, and the public should weigh the ideas of their own accord. It has nothing to do with the State unless one longs for fascism.

Where they ban book-burners, they will turn eventually to burning book-burning people.

Burn, you Qur'an, and warm my heart, I say.

Obviously I did not write in direct response to Hugh. I write my defence of Jones not in defence of Jones but in defence of "direct action." Jones seems to be making a deliberate and obnoxious provocation in public determined to antagonise Muslims. I'm for it.

I'm not in favour of antagonising Muslims just for the sake of my personal pleasure. I support this action because it is a legitimate and aggressive defence of liberty against the philistine dhimmitude and philobarabarism of our intelligentsia against the interests of the people. If this pokes the intelligentsia in the eye, and if the Muslim world is offended at the same time, so be it. This is a matter of self-assertion of the people. The rest of it is secondary, if important as well.

Everything we do to stand up for personal liberty, regardless of whether it offends Muslims or dhimmi fascism in the West, is good. If our opposition don't like it, that's to be expected. Why should we care what the opposition think? If we think through their positions honestly and conclude that we disagree, then we have done a fair job and must move on from there. Liberty first, sociability maybe later.

The saddest part of all this is that we know in our hearts that the burning of a book does nothing to further the cause of our own civilisation.

The enemies of reason and democracy are the politicos of Europe and the the United States, not prepared to listen to the people they are supposed to represent. They are the ones who should be being burned in effigy.

If this stunt goes ahead the real danger, nay certainty, is that the first victims won't be found in America, they are most likely to be Christian minority folk who are least able to defend themselves, in lands far from the protection of US/UN forces. We have all seen it so many times before.

If just one young school girl in say the Phillipines or Thailand or anywhere else for that matter, ends up beheaded and laid out on a mortuary slab, will the supporters of the book burning still feel vindicated in the 'exercising of their democratic right' in this way?

Is the loss of an innocent life to be held so cheaply just because no one in the US thinks it could happen to them? If that is the case then we are no better than the vicious bastards we wish to be rid of.

Rev Terry Jones cannot back down now for if he does the Muslims have won yet again. They already know that the vast majority of the people in the West are dhimmified especially their religious and political leaders. Go to it Reverend Jones

The question is not whether Reverend Jones has a right to do it or how difficult it is to suppress the private and no doubt understandable impulse to immolate a hideous text in what an old poet calls "a backyard auto-da-fe," but whether, at this historical moement, in the larger scheme of things, it hinders or helps. Right now, given the way things were going -- the right way -- why have a stock figure from our contemporary Commedia dell'Arte -- the Right-Wing Narrow-Minded Fire-and-Brimstone Southern Preacher Man, who hates not only Islam but all all kinds of things -- be handed on a platter to the banal huffing-and-puffington posters of this world?

When did cunning go out of style?

The critics of the green book burning are creating the controversy that they deride.

All they have to do is Google "koran burning" and they can see several videos of the koran, the bible, and all sorts of flags and stuff getting abused.

Burning the koran is nothing new, and those inclined to be violent already have all the excuses they need.

Since the US Military took the extraordinary step of burning bibles themselves (those written in Pashtun) who are they to complain about someone else burning religious texts?

What, there were no riots by christians over the US Military burning bibles?

Where was the outrage of the politicians then?

Too 'bad' the "outrage" ploy won't work - people are beginning to ask "What is actually in that book?"

I can see the TV ad now: Mother says to her daughter who is a conversion target "Can we talk - have you actually READ what is in this book?"


I am with RS on this one, burning the koran serves no useful purpose.
Unfortunately we have gotten in such a predicament that our troops are in harm's way. If the good reverend goes through the much published Koran burning. The troops may not be in danger from the general population but from our well trained and equipped Muslim allies. Our so called allies who we had supposedly won their hearts and minds. The Muslims of the world have literally millions or so unarmed Christian hostages to vent their anger on. This is not the wisest thing to do. A better way is to simply educate, educate, and educate all the people about the evils of the death cult and it's evil manual, the Koran.

miriam rove said:
"As I have mentioned here before many times, Bloomberg is the most honorable poitician (sic) our country has ever seen."

I wonder what country you live in, miriam? It must be a very strange place. Apparently the only politicians ever seen there have been: Bloomberg, Willy and Hillary Clinton, Barry Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Charley Rangel, Maxine Waters, Al Gore, Harry Reid, and Teddy Kennedy. I guess that Bloomberg might rate pretty high in that company.

If Qur'an burning in Florida results in a person outside the United States being killed by Muslims in reaction to the Qur'an burning, does it make us responsible for such murder, we knowing such provocative actions on our parts will likely lead to such reactions among Muslims at least somewhere? I'll say yes, it might well be on our heads. Our actions, speaking generally here, do affect Muslim actions, some of which will be violent and even murderous, directed not at us particularly, but against the innocent and helpless elsewhere.

I won't be in Florida to burn a Qur'an. I do publicly support this action, though, which means I take some personal responsibility for anything that follows directly from it, including the Muslim murder of innocents, even Muslims themselves. Without this provocation, no doubt some alive today will be alive next week, which with this provocation is not the case, we can be sure. Muslims will kill the innocent because of this. I know that with some certainty. I accept it because to refuse to act this way is far worse than being secondarily responsible for the murder of innocents elsewhere.

Some Muslims are murderers, and they need no provocation to commit murder beyond the very fact of the existence of those they do not like. No passivity on our parts will stop them from committing murder. They might not kill next week those they will indeed kill if the burning takes place; but they will kill again anyway, someone, somewhere, no matter what we do. Eventually, those who will kill over a book burning will kill over some other excuse. Whether we act or do not act, there will be death. Fate decides that, not us. Appeasing Muslims won't save people, it will simply shuffle the chairs as the ship sinks. We have to take a stand and aggressively react, with our own force, to stop this warfare on the part of Muslims. War is death. This is war. We have to accept that people die, even the innocent. Life is not fair. We cannot make is so, given that we are not demigods. That's not viciousness, it's reality as we must live it in this imperfect world.

What would make us as evil as the jihadis we are at war against is if we were to take on the responsibilities of the gods to make the world perfect. To suggest that we act (by not acting) is to determine ourselves as gods who can control the world of the living. We cannot. We must not try to act as gods. Our best efforts are to act as individuals in cooperation with other individuals for our own best interests. The world will take care of itself. The Gnostic idea that we can see the Agathon and should control the world through our own actions for the sake of all is a hubris too far for most of us. We must, in good faith, act to the best of our abilities and leave the rest to others to do the same. If it means some will die, it's not we who kill, and thus it is not our responsibility. Some will die because of what we do, but we do not kill them. That is a direct responsibility of others. The victims of Islam must fight this war as well. They have to live with the prospect of murder, more directly perhaps than we, but not necessarily so. It's a matter of us all taking personal responsibility for our own actions and lives. Burning a Qur'an is personal, even if it affects others elsewhere. Others must deal with this world as it is as well, and as well as they can.

This idea of collective sin is a fascism. I want no part of that, given that holding such a vision would prompt me to condemn all Muslims, which I do not. But I reserve the right to act individually even if others suffer because of it. They too must act individually to protect themselves from Muslims. That's the nature of things in this imperfect world. We can't change that till we become gods, a not too likely event, I think.

If a deliberate provocation of Muslims were simply a deliberate provocation of Muslims for its own sake, and if that were to lead to the murder of innocents abroad or elsewhere, I would be against that. It would serve no good purpose to provoke Muslims to murder just for its own sake. But, if provoking Muslims is one step toward a goal, then I might say I am in favour. That goal must be the elimination of jihadis who kill the innocent.

Does burning Qur'ans in Florida further the demise of jihad in general? I wonder, but I doubt it. It might even deepen the commitment of some Muslims to further engage in jihad. That is not the point of burning Qur'ans, not to destroy Islam by burning nor to cause the deaths of innocents by burning Qur'ans. The point is to arouse aggression among our own people so they can finally stand up to the fascist intelligentsia and defy the hostage-takers of the world, even if some "hostages" are killed due to this.

This act of public defiance is not so much against Islam as it is against dhimmitude in the West. Burning the Qur'an in Florida is a slap in the face of dhimmis. Dhimmitude allows for the hostage-taking of the world. Replace the dhimmi intelligentsia and we will finally confront the terror that is jihad. First we must defeat our own dhimmitude, Then we can turn our attentions to jihad.

That's the usual brilliance I expect from Hugh. In spite of the topic here, I laugh heartily.

To be serious, I think, though the man Jones himself is all the things Hugh writes of him, that to have anyone at all burn a Qur'an like this is a proper aggression that the dhimmis will condemn regardless. Too bad, of course, that it is such a -- I laugh-- "stock figure from our contemporary Commedia dell'Arte" who does this. We could wish for someone better. But it really matters only to those who ultimately fear the Left's domineering opinions. I do not, whether I approve of Jones or no. Would it matter, though, if a better class of character, the well-liked Otto de Fay, for example, were to do such a thing? I say, if it takes a man like Jones to do the right thing, where were the better sorts when he took the lead?

I'm in favour of cunning, but I still desire a full array of strategies to go with each course as they come. sometimes cunning is better, sometimes no.

Elsewhere, I've agreed with RS while recognizing Jones' First Amendment right to do something imprudent.

My biggest concern about the Qu'ran-burning is not the hair-trigger mobs of the Muslim street or the timid MultiCulties who pretend to be American leaders. Nor is it Terry Jones' lack of prudence.

Rather, there are more Muslims than we know who have been questioning their received faith over the last few decades. Since 9/11, their numbers have grown. I've run into immigrant West African students in my school who ask me to address them by their tribal rather than Muslim names, because they have become Christians.

It would be an unprecedented tragedy, at a time when God the Holy Spirit is clearing cracking the hard ground of the Islamic World, for a billion Muslims to see the Gospel as a club held over their heads rather than a gate through which they are invited to pass to a true knowledge of God.

Islam threatens and kills no matter what you do, except perhaps recite the shahada.
It is not our responsibility for their actions; they must be held responsible. It is like an extremely abusive parent who beats their child bloody and then says "see what you made me do!?" There is no restraining appeasement that will change the outcome, if they want to threaten and kill. It is just what they will do, and we must do as we must, either to protest their actions, or stop them. Their response will be abuse regardless. The outrage is we do nothing.


From pastor Terry Jones view, as far as as it looks by his writings and postings, he is not burning a book of a flawed faith. His actions are not targeting muslims.

He is clear about what he thinks islam is, it is the "bible" of satan, the devil's word.

A Fox news reporter called him a "anti-islam bigot" for his burning the qur'an event, however if viewed from his perspective, he is actually a "anti-satan bigot", and perhaps one should consider if a Christian pastor should hold this view.

Unless a Christian pastor, who speaks and acts against what he sees as satanic, is no longer considered a proper position to hold.

If satan's bible is torched, in this context, who can call him a "bigot"?

But if you recite the shahada you are still not safe - are the Muslims of Darfur safe? No-one is safe in Islam.

Sonofwalker said all I wanted to, only far better than I would have! Yes, we are at war. But it is an anarchic war with an army of disparate individuals who are not acting on orders. Maybe every approach is useful, whether or not it looks dignified, clever or cunning. I am not clever or cunning; I just tell people what I think. I quote the Koran back at Muslims who think they can get away with the "Islam means peace" nonsense, tell Sudanese they have a responsibility to speak up, tell dhimmis how pathetic they are, congratulate apostates and Christians who keep their faith in Muslim countries. Other people write about Islam, and others organise demonstrations, or write to government ministers, or draw cartoons. Still others burn Korans in anger. None of this amounts to persecution of Muslims; far from it; but one day the "victimhood" they claim will be a reality because they will push some of us too far. Who will those people be? Maybe one of them will be me...I've got quite a temper, and I'm pretty angry and frustrated about what our governments are allowing.
No-one wants to do any dirty work - we want to be dignified and defeat this foe with clever words. But our words are not preventing the Islamization of our countries. The truth on its own is rarely enough to defeat totalitarianism...I think we all realise that.

Burn the Koran; why not? Things will have to brought to a head sooner or later. Maybe sooner is better, before their numbers swamp us.

"The saddest part of all this is that we know in our hearts that the burning of a book does nothing to further the cause of our own civilisation."

I'm not so sure about that. Our civilisation is under assault by Islam, which is a religious and political ideology. The west either does not understand this or refuses to recognise it. We have been repeatedly told this by ex muslims like Aayan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan and many others, there are moderate muslims but no moderate Islam. This like nothing else will bring debate about Islam to the fore.

"If this stunt goes ahead the real danger, nay certainty, is that the first victims won't be found in America, they are most likely to be Christian minority folk who are least able to defend themselves, in lands far from the protection of US/UN forces. We have all seen it so many times before."

Unfortunately you are probably right. But they are in grave danger as it is. Islam will always find an excuse for violence against non-muslims.

If people take a human life because a book has been burnt, then I hope you realise that the crime is committed by the killer or killers and not the burner of the book.

Also please do not underestimate the danger to the Rev or his church. Listen to Wafa Sultan, Aayan Hirsi Ali, Geert Wilders etc. All those who have spoken against Islam. They lives are hell living in hiding and constant fear against retaliation by violent muslims.

This man has dared to do what no one else has ever dared. We must support his right to freedom of expression.

rich: yes! Everyone is against him, but how many of us have fantasies like burning the Koran, or trying to get it banned, or all kinds of things...but we are waiting for someone else to do it, and then we can criticise them, but secretly admire them and be grateful to them for doing the dirty work.

to burn the islamic religious book sends a message we accept islam as a religion. We are not fighting a religion. We are fighting the imposition of a foreign legal and political system contrary to our Constitution. Why don't we burn the MASLIM BROTHERHOOD manifesto instead?

I too heard the FOX reporter call this man, Mr. Jones, "bigot." Like so many reporters and others in public life, she doesn't seem to know the true meaning of the word. Bigot is not a word against a chosen way, but against race or ethnicity. Islam is chosen, not a birth condition.
Also, she, and others, are not saying, "In my opinion,"...they are making statements as though making the statement of their opinion makes it a statement of fact.

Islam is touted, here and abroad, as a religion of "peace." Most commentators it seems are afraid to say differently. This is understandable to some degree because the average muslim man is more than willing to kill for the slightest, nay, not even rising to the level of a slight, insult. We have been told, time and again, endlessly, that there is a "minority" of muslims who are violent. When was the definition of "minority" changed? When did this word come to mean millions? The populations of some countries?
There seems to be no end to the taliban fighters...i.e. violent muslim...who are willing to come out of their caves and dens to put women, children, and soldiers to death. How many millions does it take to equal a significant number?

The fact that this man in Gainseville wants to make a statement of his feelings about this violent way of life is his business. It was determined many years ago that burning something that has special meaning for others is a lawful act and not subject to legal censure.

I wouldn't personally possess the book to burn...it is a waste of money to buy one. Therefore, I don't have one to burn. But the man has a legal right to burn it as long as he is not putting lives in danger. Literally! This is an isolated act that will not kill anyone in any other country.

To say that he is going to kill soldiers, Christians, or others in countries where Islam is powerful enough that men can come out into the streets and kill others with impunity is giving a validation to the murder of these persons. After all, muslims say they are killing because: there have been Americans in Saudia Arabia, muslims are poor due to American supremacy in the world, etc. and ad nauseam.

Why isn't someone saying, Why the violent outrage by the members of the "religion of peace" over the burning of a book? Because those who are deciding that this man is not a "Christian" like them, and they wouldn't burn the koran because it isn't "Christian" are too willing to allow the muslims to dictate what is "American" and "Christian" and it all boils down to fear of reprisal.

Will the "attack" on the mosque out west be linked by some to this man's plans to burn the koran? What if the "attack" is found to be the act of a muslim who wants the mosque to appear to have been a target of a "hate crime?"

What if Terry Jones became ill on Saturday and had to postpone his book burning? Would the violence against non-muslims cease until he got well and chose another day?

The general could have called Jones and asked him privately not to go ahead with his plans. The others could have just kept quiet about it as it isn't their business to get into the personal business of each individual in the country.

I agree with those who hold that burning the Bible by U.S. soldiers so the muslims would stay peaceful....they would have to get there to stay there....did not receive nearly the press that this little book burning by a lone figure has received. We all know why that is true. At least, some of us do.

A muslim doesn't need a "reason" like a koran burning to kill. They kill anyway, every day, in war and in "peace."

What do you mean if? There has been for years a double standard that allows all those that disagree with America to burn its flags and/or leaders in effigy. These pictures have graced almost every notable magazine and website at some point or another. Yet the continued expected behavior for Americans has been to bend and take it with a smile. I deplore the idea of have to stoop to these tactics but it is hard to forget my Sun Tzu in these matters. Consider the results of Black Jack Pershings' campaign and how his singular attack on their beliefs caused ( at least towards the US ) a hiatus in the terrorist attacks. These are troubling times and the best and most simple way to look at the coming war is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Therefore since Islam is for world domination; it is against everyone else; SO WE ARE ALL FRIENDS IN THIS CAUSE. We must support this mans act however misguided it may be, he is a scared man pushed to the brink of making a huge statement on behalf of all of us. He has rightfully identified the koran as nothing more than another Anarchist Cookbook; Turner Diaries; Mien Kampf; take your pick of books that have done nothing but encourage death, rape, mutilation, racism, etc. Hell the Turner Diaries is a work of socio-political fiction and its never goes close to saying its THE WORD of GOD. Neither do any other books on that list. The only other place you find this same ranting is from guys like Jim JOnes, David Koresh, Charlie Manson, Hugo Chaves, ya know that kinda guy. You hear about those food chit "good life cards" ? This in now way qualifies the holie kuranny as anything more than a death and robbery cult cooked up by some pedophile sheepherder that says he talked to an angel in a cave. SO HE NEVER TALKED TO GOD. Maybe, just maybe he talked to the devil; ya think? Who else encourages us to lie? to cheat? to steal? to rape? to kill? to die in the pursuit of worship? Regardless of your theological position; it is time to unite and take a stand against this cult that wishes to shut out the lives, emotions, art, land, faiths, histories and even the thoughts of anyone who does not practice this same death cult. I shall always resist. What will you do?

If Europeans had started burning copies of Hitler's book, Mein Kampf (My fight or struggle) Europe might have avoided WW II and saved millions of lives including Germans. But they chose to be politically correct and wear blinders and try to appease that demanding monster. Terry Jones will go down in history for having turned the American tide. Granted decent folks are shocked about a book burning but it is only symbolic here. How come the same self-righteous folks weren't shocked by that phony Rauf proposing a mosque as a victory symbol on the bodies of New Yorkers? No matter what Jones does tomorrow, I'll bet anyone that there will be others having qurani roasts tomorrow in other parts of America.

The Pastor did make a good point. He merely threatens to burn Qurans and the Muslim and dhimmi world gets hysterical and condemns him, and the world is told that any Muslim retaliation would be justified. A giant mosque is being built over the ruins of 9/11 with Saudi jihad money and those American citizens who oppose it are ridiculed and ignored and told to be "tolerant" of the desecration. It is the unofficial global enforcement of Sharia law, which claims worldwide jurisdiction. Can anyone foresee the next step?

Sara

you wrote - We are fighting the imposition of a foreign legal and political system contrary to our Const"itution. Why don't we burn the MASLIM BROTHERHOOD manifesto instead?"

Good idea!

And, while we're about it, why not print off from the Internet, where it is readily available, the text of the so-called 'Pact of Omar', template of all the hideously petty, nasty rules that Muslims have used for centuries to bully and oppress their non-Muslim minorities, and burn THAT?

After having read it aloud, of course, on camera, so that everyone can hear how viciously cruel it is.

Here is one translation. Note that in an extra touch of sadism it is couched in the first person plural; as if the defeated dhimmis are 'voluntarily' imposing these draconian 'conditions of surrender' upon themselves.

From Ibn Kathir, 'the Tafsir Ibn Kathir', Riyadh, 2000; vol 4, pages 404-407; interpretation of Quran 9: 29.

Reproduced in Andrew Bostom's anthology "Legacy of Jihad", pages 128-130.

'Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace 


'Allah said,

﴿حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ﴾

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

﴿عَن يَدٍ﴾

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

﴿وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ﴾

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

'Muslim [i.e. the Sahih Muslim hadith collector] recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

«لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.)

'This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians,

'these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

'The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham [THAT IS: the Byzantine Christians of formerly Byzantine ‘Palestine’, the Land of Israel]:

`In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city.

'When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion.

'We made a condition on ourselves that

'we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk,

'nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration

'nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims.

'We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors (of our houses of worship) for the wayfarer and passerby.

'Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days.

'We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit (or betrayal) against Muslims.

'We will not teach our children the Qur'an,

'publicize practices of Shirk,

'invite anyone to Shirk {i.e. no evangelising of Muslims is allowed - dda}

or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. {i.e. Muslims while forbidding dhimmis to invite Muslims to join their faith, are free to proselytize non-Muslims - dda}

'We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them.

'We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names,

'or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons.
{All American readers, note well: dhimmis had no right to own or bear arms - dda}.

'We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor.

'We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes [i.e. humiliating garments so that Muslims may know whom to attack! - dda]
wherever we are,

'wear belts around our waist,

'refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches

'and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets.

{Note: in Gaza, under Hamas, a local Arab Christian, Rami Ayyad, was murdered by Muslim thugs; he was the owner of a Christian bookshop - dda}.

'We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely,

'or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches [!!!] in the presence of Muslims,

'nor raise our voices (with prayer) at our funerals,

'or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets.

'We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims.

'We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.”

[note : Muslims can invite themselves into a dhimmi’s house or church and stay there and expect to be provided for, but dhimmis are forbidden to enter a Muslim’s house: this is a revolting breach of the principle of reciprocity - dda].

'When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, “We will not beat any Muslim”.

{Note - in other translations, this says 'we will not strike any Muslim'. Note the absence of qualification. What this means, in practice, is that dhimmis had absolutely no right of self-defence. It is 'we will not beat/ strike a Muslim', period, under no circumstances whatsoever; NOT EVEN IF THE MUSLIM HAS ATTACKED US FIRST, not even if he is raping my daughter or getting ready to slit my throat...I *am not allowed* to strike him. - dda}

'These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection.

'If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

[i.e – open warfare, mass murder, rape and enslavement and robbery. NOTE: THIS CLAUSE – which provides that ANY perceived, or supposed, or pretended, or even merely rumoured ‘breach’ of these punishingly oppressive Rules for Dhimmis, justifies Total War to properly punish the ‘offending’ community – has over and over and over been provided the pretext for Muslims to attack dhimmi communities in the most vicious and horrible fashion - dda].

In most Muslim countries these rules were only the beginning; all kinds of great and small humiliations were devised by the fiendish Muslim imagination, to be inflicted upon the defenceless dhimmis. For example, one rule in 17th century Islamic Iran decreed that Jews were not to be allowed to eat good fruit.

Read the 'Pact of Omar' through carefully, and you'll find, for example, the reason why every non-Muslim minority, in every Muslim-dominated country, finds it impossible or else extremely difficult to build new places of worship, let alone even fix up old ones (that is, dating from before the time when the Muslims gained power).

Read it out loud; at the end of every clause shout, 'THAT'S NOT FAIR! WE WON'T DO THAT!'.

Then tear the paper to shreds and consign the whole thing to the flames, at the end.

And, while it's burning American citizens, if it is citizens of the USA who are carrying out the protest, should read - with proper emphasis and enjoyment - the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights.

Citizens of other free countries might choose to read out loud the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

For consignment to the flames, I suggest not only the Pact of Omar, whose text I have provided above, but the so-called 'Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam', whose every clause is ultimately subject to Islamic Sharia...thus rendering it essentially meaningless, for **the Pact of Omar, prescribing the deliberate degradation and humiliation of the dhimmi, is immovably part of Sharia**.

Here's an exposition of various points on which Sharia violates human rights as we in the west have come to understand them:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates/abulk/articles/Islams_violation_of_HR.htm

And in this jihadwatch thread, from 2008, 'Muslims in America'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/08/fitzgerald-muslims-and-america.html

if you scroll down, you will find in the comments section a comment, by Hugh, dated August 29 2008, which includes the full text of both the UDHR and the Cairo Declaration.

In that posting, note this remark: "take a look at Articles 24 and 25 at the end of the Cairo Declaration. You will see that all rights and freedoms and subject to the Islamic Shariah and the Shariah is the only source of reference for the Cairo Declaration. Therefore we must read the rest of the Cairo Declaration with this in mind."

Copy and save the whole comment. Print it off. Then you will have both documents, on paper, nice and handy.

Read both. Keep the UDHR. Rip into pieces and then BURN the Cairo Declaration - having *first* read it out, slowly, and criticised its total denial of anything we would recognise as universal human rights and dignity; noting particularly Article 10, which forbids that any Muslim should be permitted to apostasise...and remember, too, everything in the Cairo Declaration is to be interpreted in the light of sharia...sharia which prescribes Death for Apostasy. Article 10 of the Cairo Declaration FORBIDS that anyone should exercise the right to change his or her religion which is guaranteed by the UDHR.

Matt Edwards

you wrote -"If this stunt goes ahead the real danger, nay certainty, is that the first victims won't be found in America, they are most likely to be Christian minority folk who are least able to defend themselves, in lands far from the protection of US/UN forces. We have all seen it so many times before."

Muslims take out their rage on any Infidel they find to hand, sure.

But if we refrain from exercising our freedoms on our own soil, because Muslims threaten to hurt our co-religionists that they have within their power, we will be allowing the Muslims to play the hostage game; to use the non-Muslims trapped within their lands, as HOSTAGES by which to force the total submission of the as-yet-unsubdued co-religionists of those dhimmis, elsewhere, in lands where Muslims are not the majority.

I think we have to refuse to play the hostage game, whether the 'hostages' by which Islam seeks to compel our submission (or, perhaps, our payment of more, and more, and more 'aid'/ tribute/ jizya) are our soldiers currently on their futile 'nation-building' mission in dar al Islam, or the indigenous dhimmi Christians, or Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists imprisoned in the Predator Pit that is dar al Islam.

By analogy: terrible though it is to have to make such a decision, Israel *cannot* and *must not* surrender to Hamas because of what the jihadists are doing to the imprisoned Gilad Shalit.

*WE* should not allow the Muslims to force us to do whatever they want, to become their slaves, because "if you don't submit we [the Muslims] say, we'll torture/ rape/ rob/ kill your family members here in dar al Islam and it will be *all your fault* [insert sneer of cold command here]".

What if they threaten to 'kill the Christians' or 'attack the NATO soldiers', UNLESS we hand over Geert Wilders and Kurt Westergaard and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Rifqa Bary to the proper Muslim authorities, to be executed?

The only response to the hostage game is: don't be tricked into playing it. And come down like a ton of bricks on extortioners, kidnappers and holders-to-ransom, be they mafia dons..or Mohammedan mobsters.

Gravenimage - you wrote -

'White House press secretary Robert Gibbs echoed this concern on Tuesday, noting that anything "that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration."
..............

"What if Jihadists threaten to murder American troops if American women don't start veiling themselves? What if they threaten to murder American troops if we don't immediately impose Shari'ah law?

'Would Americans who didn't agree to these strictures be a "concern" for this administration as well?'

Good point. As I said to 'Sara', in my post above, we can't allow Muslims to use non-Muslims in dar al Islam, our own troops or the native non-Muslim dhimmis, as hostages to compel our compliance/ submission.

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